[ Her snort is almost obnoxious, though it's not something maliciously aimed at Natasha - it's at the idea and its absurdity. ]
If we're going to abide by Christian logic, da. Sure. For all we know, the Other Guy has pull in certain areas. Though, a case could be made for divorce being possible given how "wrong" it is. [ Talia did the finger quotes, thighs clamped around the vodka to keep the bottle in place. ]
Be real for at least this answer; how are you doing?
Christian logic tends to be the rule around here. Though admittedly not without some embellishment.
[Though really, who knew? Natasha is guessing, the same as all of them.
The other part... Natasha doesn't answer immediately. It's not as easy for her to be honest in response, but it's also not so easy to lie face to face. Not to someone who has an inkling some of the ways this might be difficult.
Finally she shrugs.]
I've been been better. [A deep breath.] It's a hit. It'll take a minute to shake off.
[ Since they're already discussing him, Natalia is alright with continuing, with making this a rare occasion, and so she presses for more information. ]
How so?
[ To further emphasize that she's asking from a genuine place and not just for the sake of it, Talia leans across the space between them to top off Tasha's glass. Never mind that they've switched to the bottles. It's the gesture that matters. ]
[Natasha accepts the gesture, throwing back the shot. She hadn't really meant to get into the topic of Bucky, but considering the topic at hand, both the jealousy and the cause of Natasha's current mood, it's hard to avoid it entirely.
She weighs her words carefully before she says more. After tapping her glass lightly on the table two or three times:]
When he realized the situation was bothering me, he tried to let me take the lead. Be the one to decide if we fought and let ourselves be punished and forced into it or go along with the whole charade. To do right by my feelings. Normally that's not a bad instinct... [Natasha does like to be in control.]
I'm not really sure there was anything he could have done that would have helped just then. I snapped at him. He doesn't understand why.
[ Natalia sips whilst listening, an endearing smirk briefly taking over her features as Natasha tells her that Bucky was very much Bucky. Because of course he would have done that, would have gone along with whichever decision. ]
Is he aware of what happen before? With Barton?
[ Though it's concealed, she still looks in the general direction of her other self's tattoo, the one meant for Clint. ]
Natasha. [ She leans forward in an attempt to prompt their gazes meeting, her tone gently chiding. ] If anyone can understand being brainwashed, it's us. You and I have fake memories, his were erased. All three of us were the playthings of others until we broke free. And then to have this thing that was never really an option before accessible but again done without our consent, it's...[ eyes dart away for the moment ]...it's fucked up. It's a lot. They keep taking these major choices from us.
They do. And I won't say I don't think Bucky understands some of it. The general... understanding what it's like not to have freedom. To have all of your choices made for you, and the resent them.
[Natasha licks her lips. It's hard to talk about this even with Talia, who presumably understands better than anyone, even if their experiences haven't been exactly the same either.]
But Barnes had a normal life once, before the war. He had a family.
[They didn't, did they?]
He doesn't know what it's like to have this shit happen, have it happen again, and how much it hurts that it's the closest you'll ever get to the real thing.
You know during that thing with Clint, we had a kid? Assigned to us, naturally. [Widows don't get to be mothers.] He's here again. And even with everything, even knowing the whole thing was fake, I still care about him. Feel responsible for him. And no matter how much I hate that I was forced to feel that, I don't care about him less. But when I think about how I feel about him, I resent the whole thing more.
[She can't meet Natalia's eyes as she says that. For a moment, it feels too exposed.]
And the real kicker is that it's not the first time it's happened.
As much as Barnes does understand, as much as he wants to understand, I don't think it's possible to really get that. I know I don't, and I lived through it.
Yeah. He did. [ Softly spoken at first, the words that follow picking up in volume after a bit of a pause as Natalia remembers discovering that. That the Winter Soldier hadn't been an orphan who was 'rescued' or stolen or groomed. Her younger self had envied him sometimes. Only, it would have been that much more difficult for her life that came After. ] And while we can't give him the stereotypical family unit, that doesn't mean we can't be a different sort of family. [ Talia pushes air out of her nose to joke. ] Separately, even if I think of you as a sister and referenced this triangle like fucking a pair a twins.
[ It's only meant to temporarily lightened the mood, because of the severity of everything. There's partial truth to it, just the same. ]
He has the heart and patience to, if not learn how to understand, accept. I may allow my emotions to get the better of me at times with regards to our situation and that's my shit to deal with, but you know, it only further drives my belief that our souls always find a way to the other's. Soldiers and Spiders belong together, somehow.
You mentioned a kid. Who is he? If you're comfortable sharing.
Very much separately. [Natasha agrees with a little wavering humor of her own.] We don't have to make it that kind or porno.
[Even if it does still seem like a certain kind of licentious fantasy.]
You are taller, though.
[Easier to laugh about that part than the idea that there's some logic to it, some kind of gravity that pulls people together even across realities. If that's the case, what did that make the two of them, back in their own universe? A near miss?
Instead, she glosses on to the other question.]
Noah Czerny. He's a little bit of a brat and a little bit of a mess, but I'm doing my best with him.
[ She positively snorts at the throwaway porno comment. ]
Oh, well, thank goodness for small favors and that there's no other way to tell the two of us apart except for the height difference.
[ Talia even feels comfortable enough to toss in a wink before taking the time to fill their shot glasses and toss it back. ]
Not someone I know, then. I guess that's an actual small favor this round. Hell, all three rounds that I've been present for - that the overlords didn't attach a house and children to the unions.
I don't know that there would be enough children to go around. Luckily there don't seem to be many around and the ones there are are all at least teenagers. I suppose God takes mercy on the young.
[She says that very wryly.It would be a much harder time being in Hell if they were surrounded by actual children. And probably much harder to pretend this is the real thing.]
They'd rather have us play the role now, it seems. Not that that doesn't get weird enough on its own.
[ With a disturbed frown, Natalia's mind briefly delves into a darker territory, that there might be ways around that from clones to the demons themselves, but she doesn't think there's much reason giving these nightmare hypotheticals a voice. ]
About as weird as celebrating Christmas here.
[ The redhead moves to take a drink, only to pause with the bottle hovering near her lips. ]
You know, I should probably take the alcohol away from you and make you feel this. Deal with it more properly than through drink.
[ Eyes dart to the movement, but Natalia keeps a level tone. ]
A distraction is still a distraction and if alcohol has already been involved, then I don't think you're feeling it enough. We do better with clear minds to figure out the next steps. Mammon robbed you all of the option of consensus, so don't let him steal anything else. Find - (( deep breaths, Natalia, deep breaths )) Find something to take back.
I'm not that drunk. [Which is a statement, considering the amount she's had. But Natasha doesn't have a super soldier's metabolism, even if she's always had a high tolerance.] And I'm not giving up. I'm just... processing.
It's not just the wedding. That's the most recent thing, but it's month after month, choice after choice, and I'm tired of it.
And what if there's a place where our choices aren't made for us? What if redemption means either going to that place or...or, shit, being resurrected? Bucky is going to get out of here sooner than later; I know you didn't miss how much he changed between the last time we saw him alive and his return. He's so close to getting out. [ Natalia is tearing up, that feeling of overwhelming pride and love seeping into the conversation. ] If someone like Barnes is capable, who was brainwashed and yet shouldered the blame anyway, then why not a Widow?
[ Her tone starts with a subtle hint of urgency and franticness, though it ends with warmth and determination. Talia thinks about saying something regards monsters and monstrous things, but she instead swallows it down. ]
[Natasha asks with more than normal affect. That could be down to the liquor, or it could be a mark of just how rattled she is. The real answer probably lays in some combination of the two.]
The redemption is a scam. Even if it is real—and allowing that is an awful big hypothetical—the system is rigged. It's one step forward and two back. The whole idea of this place it to prove that we're not fit for redemption. That given the chance, most of us will drink and fuck and to hell with all of this pain and self-reflection. It's bullshit.
People don't get out because they're redeemed. They just leave. They come and go, and there's no system to it, but they dangle the promise of redemption in front of us to keep people playing along. Keep people suffering for because they hope it's a way out, because this whole goddamn place is committed to a gimmick.
[Natasha pauses, lips pressed together, and pours herself another shot. She doesn't break eye contact as she does.
It takes her a moment to collect herself, but after she takes the shot, her tone is even again if huskier than normal.]
Barnes is different from me. He's getting out because he's not dead. Because eventually, whatever it is they do to bring us here, it's going to let him go and when it does, he has somewhere to go to.
He never needed to be redeemed in the first place.
[ With a measured deep breath and a level tone, Natalia holds her younger self's gaze, demeanor controlled despite the cataclysmic emotions toiling away inside. ]
It doesn't matter whether or not I buy into it. Someone used to think that those who rebelled were either sent to another level of Hell or turned into the ghosts that haunt this place, the ones who possess others. He said, quote, "Lucifer and the Veiled Order have both said that's what happens to people who try to rebel against him." And when a friend of his was no longer around, Lucifer informed him it was because that person had been redeemed, however he called bullshit simply because of that person's behavior. That they had no remorse or regrets.
[ Natalia shrugs, unable to weigh in when she didn't know Ivar and barely knew Dodger. ]
The point is, there's no harm in trying whereas not trying actually does cause harm. I don't even know whether or not I myself want to go for it or if what I found here is worth staying for. Because you're right, it sure as fuck is one step forward and far too many backward.
[ For the sake of doing so, Natalia confirms that they're still alone, that no one is (or is about to) enter Natasha's room, and she scoots closer so that her lowered tones are better heard. ]
So, what's the plan? Take over? Carve out a space for ourselves?
[ Even though those suggest staying, just not staying on Lucifer and Company's terms. Squalo certainly thinks he can put down roots in his own slice of 'land'. And then there's the slow moving Thing Waverly mentioned regarding Fitz. ]
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[It is Hell, after all. Aren't they supposed to suffer? Or to be tested. Either way, really.]
Though I think the party line is that God loves marriage. Divorce, not so much.
[Maybe it's even true. Maybe they do enforce God's will in that respect. Isn't all of this allegedly God's will? But Natasha doubts it.
She's inclined to think it's just one more way to fuck with them.]
Believe me, I do sympathize with that.
[Considering this is the closest she expects to come to a real marriage.]
Yay, new icons!
If we're going to abide by Christian logic, da. Sure. For all we know, the Other Guy has pull in certain areas. Though, a case could be made for divorce being possible given how "wrong" it is. [ Talia did the finger quotes, thighs clamped around the vodka to keep the bottle in place. ]
Be real for at least this answer; how are you doing?
I am living for getting new icons.
[Though really, who knew? Natasha is guessing, the same as all of them.
The other part... Natasha doesn't answer immediately. It's not as easy for her to be honest in response, but it's also not so easy to lie face to face. Not to someone who has an inkling some of the ways this might be difficult.
Finally she shrugs.]
I've been been better. [A deep breath.] It's a hit. It'll take a minute to shake off.
I owe Barnes an apology.
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How so?
[ To further emphasize that she's asking from a genuine place and not just for the sake of it, Talia leans across the space between them to top off Tasha's glass. Never mind that they've switched to the bottles. It's the gesture that matters. ]
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She weighs her words carefully before she says more. After tapping her glass lightly on the table two or three times:]
When he realized the situation was bothering me, he tried to let me take the lead. Be the one to decide if we fought and let ourselves be punished and forced into it or go along with the whole charade. To do right by my feelings. Normally that's not a bad instinct... [Natasha does like to be in control.]
I'm not really sure there was anything he could have done that would have helped just then. I snapped at him. He doesn't understand why.
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Is he aware of what happen before? With Barton?
[ Though it's concealed, she still looks in the general direction of her other self's tattoo, the one meant for Clint. ]
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[And why would he? Bucky wasn't there when it happened, and it's not like she's really tried to explain it.]
I don't know that there are many people who would understand.
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[Natasha licks her lips. It's hard to talk about this even with Talia, who presumably understands better than anyone, even if their experiences haven't been exactly the same either.]
But Barnes had a normal life once, before the war. He had a family.
[They didn't, did they?]
He doesn't know what it's like to have this shit happen, have it happen again, and how much it hurts that it's the closest you'll ever get to the real thing.
You know during that thing with Clint, we had a kid? Assigned to us, naturally. [Widows don't get to be mothers.] He's here again. And even with everything, even knowing the whole thing was fake, I still care about him. Feel responsible for him. And no matter how much I hate that I was forced to feel that, I don't care about him less. But when I think about how I feel about him, I resent the whole thing more.
[She can't meet Natalia's eyes as she says that. For a moment, it feels too exposed.]
And the real kicker is that it's not the first time it's happened.
As much as Barnes does understand, as much as he wants to understand, I don't think it's possible to really get that. I know I don't, and I lived through it.
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[ It's only meant to temporarily lightened the mood, because of the severity of everything. There's partial truth to it, just the same. ]
He has the heart and patience to, if not learn how to understand, accept. I may allow my emotions to get the better of me at times with regards to our situation and that's my shit to deal with, but you know, it only further drives my belief that our souls always find a way to the other's. Soldiers and Spiders belong together, somehow.
You mentioned a kid. Who is he? If you're comfortable sharing.
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[Even if it does still seem like a certain kind of licentious fantasy.]
You are taller, though.
[Easier to laugh about that part than the idea that there's some logic to it, some kind of gravity that pulls people together even across realities. If that's the case, what did that make the two of them, back in their own universe? A near miss?
Instead, she glosses on to the other question.]
Noah Czerny. He's a little bit of a brat and a little bit of a mess, but I'm doing my best with him.
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Oh, well, thank goodness for small favors and that there's no other way to tell the two of us apart except for the height difference.
[ Talia even feels comfortable enough to toss in a wink before taking the time to fill their shot glasses and toss it back. ]
Not someone I know, then. I guess that's an actual small favor this round. Hell, all three rounds that I've been present for - that the overlords didn't attach a house and children to the unions.
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[She says that very wryly.It would be a much harder time being in Hell if they were surrounded by actual children. And probably much harder to pretend this is the real thing.]
They'd rather have us play the role now, it seems. Not that that doesn't get weird enough on its own.
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About as weird as celebrating Christmas here.
[ The redhead moves to take a drink, only to pause with the bottle hovering near her lips. ]
You know, I should probably take the alcohol away from you and make you feel this. Deal with it more properly than through drink.
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You think I'm not feeling it? [Natasha asks, her fingers wrapping around the neck of the vodka bottle.]
That's an interesting observation.
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A distraction is still a distraction and if alcohol has already been involved, then I don't think you're feeling it enough. We do better with clear minds to figure out the next steps. Mammon robbed you all of the option of consensus, so don't let him steal anything else. Find - (( deep breaths, Natalia, deep breaths )) Find something to take back.
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It's not just the wedding. That's the most recent thing, but it's month after month, choice after choice, and I'm tired of it.
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[ She now looks to the alterations Natasha has accumulated, pausing on each with an empathetic and yet very frustrated demeanor. ]
It's not that simple, obviously, otherwise the experiment would have already failed.
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[Natasha's head snaps up at that and she sets the bottle of vodka down, her expression serious as she puts it aside and meets Natalia's blue eyes.]
I'm not getting out. That's never been on the priority list.
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[ Her tone starts with a subtle hint of urgency and franticness, though it ends with warmth and determination. Talia thinks about saying something regards monsters and monstrous things, but she instead swallows it down. ]
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[Natasha asks with more than normal affect. That could be down to the liquor, or it could be a mark of just how rattled she is. The real answer probably lays in some combination of the two.]
The redemption is a scam. Even if it is real—and allowing that is an awful big hypothetical—the system is rigged. It's one step forward and two back. The whole idea of this place it to prove that we're not fit for redemption. That given the chance, most of us will drink and fuck and to hell with all of this pain and self-reflection. It's bullshit.
People don't get out because they're redeemed. They just leave. They come and go, and there's no system to it, but they dangle the promise of redemption in front of us to keep people playing along. Keep people suffering for because they hope it's a way out, because this whole goddamn place is committed to a gimmick.
[Natasha pauses, lips pressed together, and pours herself another shot. She doesn't break eye contact as she does.
It takes her a moment to collect herself, but after she takes the shot, her tone is even again if huskier than normal.]
Barnes is different from me. He's getting out because he's not dead. Because eventually, whatever it is they do to bring us here, it's going to let him go and when it does, he has somewhere to go to.
He never needed to be redeemed in the first place.
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It doesn't matter whether or not I buy into it. Someone used to think that those who rebelled were either sent to another level of Hell or turned into the ghosts that haunt this place, the ones who possess others. He said, quote, "Lucifer and the Veiled Order have both said that's what happens to people who try to rebel against him." And when a friend of his was no longer around, Lucifer informed him it was because that person had been redeemed, however he called bullshit simply because of that person's behavior. That they had no remorse or regrets.
[ Natalia shrugs, unable to weigh in when she didn't know Ivar and barely knew Dodger. ]
The point is, there's no harm in trying whereas not trying actually does cause harm. I don't even know whether or not I myself want to go for it or if what I found here is worth staying for. Because you're right, it sure as fuck is one step forward and far too many backward.
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She's not sure what else there is to say.
It seems to her like they both have what they wanted to say and more out of their system.
Finally she turns the shot glass over, setting it mouth down on the table to signal she's done for the moment.]
I'm not saying I'm not trying to do something. But it's not getting out. It's not staying either.
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So, what's the plan? Take over? Carve out a space for ourselves?
[ Even though those suggest staying, just not staying on Lucifer and Company's terms. Squalo certainly thinks he can put down roots in his own slice of 'land'. And then there's the slow moving Thing Waverly mentioned regarding Fitz. ]
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[She's almost flattered, though.]
I'm mostly focusing on finding a way to get other people out. Barnes. Steve. The rest of them.
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cw: mentions of abuse
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Fade out ;